Curse

Arutima · Apr 25, 2011, 03:47 AM // 03:47

i am maining a ranger since factions (was on necromancer before)

i'd say let' buff rangers instead

give us thackeray skill bar (one hit kill bow attack, ultra spammable interrupt that gives deep wound etc)

make barrage kill everything in an 5 square kilometer area. And magebane shot to blow up your opponent's computer

Azazello · Apr 25, 2011, 06:05 AM // 06:05

@title: why?

Obviously everyone wants dervs nerfed, but I still don't get why. More room for builds with no frontline? I took a break over summer (winter for most of you) but I heard there were 2 or 3 viable all caster builds around. More 30 minute matches? I can understand that some people might prefer that I guess.

We got by for about 5 out of 6 years with no variety in the frontline, why the sudden need for it now? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, what outcome are people hoping for?

reaper with no name · Apr 25, 2011, 06:17 AM // 06:17

Because dervs today are like warriors, only more powerful and requiring absolutely no skill.

pinkeyflower · Apr 25, 2011, 06:28 AM // 06:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

@title: why?

Obviously everyone wants dervs nerfed, but I still don't get why. More room for builds with no frontline? I took a break over summer (winter for most of you) but I heard there were 2 or 3 viable all caster builds around. More 30 minute matches? I can understand that some people might prefer that I guess.

We got by for about 5 out of 6 years with no variety in the frontline, why the sudden need for it now? I'm genuinely curious. I mean, what outcome are people hoping for?

Firstly, spamming should never be equal to skilful play but with a dervish you aren't playing it correctly unless you spam; there is no distinction between mindless spam and skill.

The warrior may not be as diverse as other professions but it is more varied than the dervish which is just AoB dervs and basically nothing else.

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 07:25 AM // 07:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

Firstly, spamming should never be equal to skilful play but with a dervish you aren't playing it correctly unless you spam; there is no distinction between mindless spam and skill.

The warrior may not be as diverse as other professions but it is more varied than the dervish which is just AoB dervs and basically nothing else.

I suddenly had the mental image along with the associated music, of learning to play "chopsticks" on the piano when i was a kid...

I'd sit at the end of the bench, and rap my knuckles on the black keys and then with one finger punch out the inbetween white keys...

Now I WANT to play a dervish, just so i can post a youtube video with the music playing and skills one through 8 being activated exactly to the music of chopsticks as if played on a keyboard while still killing everything in sight.

Pondering... some few activation times may mess with the rhythm, i'll just play the dervish 1-8 skills at half speed and then speed up the video to accomplish the same feel.

Azazello · Apr 25, 2011, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by pinkeyflower

Firstly, spamming should never be equal to skilful play but with a dervish you aren't playing it correctly unless you spam; there is no distinction between mindless spam and skill.

The warrior may not be as diverse as other professions but it is more varied than the dervish which is just AoB dervs and basically nothing else.

This came up in another thread, and I'm still wondering how nerfing is the answer to a lack of depth in the dervish playstyle.

Eragon Zarroc · Apr 25, 2011, 09:11 AM // 09:11

if dervish is OP, play a dervish. buffing other professions to the dervish level isn't going to help. If you want the dervish to be less OP, try making a thread that suggests helpful ways to balance the dervish instead of one trolling anet's poor balancing decisions.

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 09:26 AM // 09:26

As all the fun of keeping this silly has now bled out I'll give a serious response:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

This came up in another thread, and I'm still wondering how nerfing is the answer to a lack of depth in the dervish playstyle.

Your question presumes two things.
1.) that the current dervish play-style needs to be changed. (i agree)
2.) that the current dervish skill-set power is acceptable and not
in need of balancing with existing alternate profession mechanics.
(I disagree)

While a lot of "fun" has been had in this thread at the expense of Dervishes, most reasonable players in pvp and pve have no hatred for the profession, merely the execution in current meta.
To clarify, while gimmick builds in HA and GvG spring up occasionally due to skill revisions such as the current Dervish Catastrophe, real players usually agree that the most satisfying method of play is when a team's variety balances each member's weaknesses. These teams prove to be the most effective and versatile.
I wager: None of these players wants to see dervishes relegated to uselessness by the "death of a thousand cuts" slowly whittling away at the "power" of dervish skills to the point where each of the skills becomes useless. What we wish to see is a powerful foe or ally, who while able to accomplish a small variety of tasks well, really shines at one feature. Thus, this profession can now be a piece of the puzzle that is "the perfect team".
The current Dervish, is trying, very successfully in many cases, to be the whole team.

Building a Better Team by addressing the Profession

Step 1.) decide on the primary tasks a profession should fulfill in a GROUP.
*crowd control? snares, kites, interrupts, minions, spirits
*pressure? damage, degen, conditions, hexes, minions, spirits
*healing? primary or secondary? direct or mitigation/regen
*splitter? objective runner, kite etc.
*spiker/nuker?
Each profession should be able to do at least one of these things
excellently, and usually 1-2 more well or passably

A-net never made it past step 1 with the dervish overhaul.

Realize that just because I need a healer doesn't mean my sin with a 40/40 set can or should attempt it. Now we're creating a profession, we've decided which things it should be good at and what it should be great at. (note: current game a dervish can do every one of the above well, and several great to absurdly well) the next step is to balance the skills to accomplish our goal

-Skipping some steps for brevity-

Step 5.) Ensure your new profession's skills have synergy with each other and increase each other's effectiveness or combine to be more powerful together than separately (prevents off prof abuse almost as effectively as primary attribute) This is where A-net began and ended with the overhaul

Step 6.) Force choices. IAS or IMS, skill. High Energy, Low Recharge or Low energy, Higher recharge. Increased damage output or inceased survivability? High single target damage or lower damage AoE? This is what we call "downsides" It starts with forcing a choice... doesn't have to be life or death, but a choice needs to be made. No cake AND icecream... you gotta pick one. Every profession except Dervishes has them and many ARE life and death. A-net never made it past Step 5 where they incorrectly started.

Edit: Mesmers honestly, have very few downsides and are somewhat OP as well, but their downside is the majority of their skills require the foe to do something to cause the damage (biggest and primary mesmer downside)

Summary: To answer your question, ideally they'd start back at Step 1 with the current skill set and ask themselves the question: "What do we want the dervish to be BEST at. Leave these skills entirely untouched at current levels. Next, What do we want them to be "Good" at. Add detractors to this pile of skills. Last, What should be the Dervish's Achilles heel... where are they weakest? adjust apropriately.

pinkeyflower · Apr 25, 2011, 09:33 AM // 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

if dervish is OP, play a dervish. buffing other professions to the dervish level isn't going to help. If you want the dervish to be less OP, try making a thread that suggests helpful ways to balance the dervish instead of one trolling anet's poor balancing decisions.

So, instead of having a variety of characters I should just see dervishes everywhere and instead of winning through skill it should just be a race to see which team wipes first. It'll be like having the bugged Signet of Ghostly Might again.

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 09:51 AM // 09:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eragon Zarroc

if dervish is OP, play a dervish. buffing other professions to the dervish level isn't going to help. If you want the dervish to be less OP, try making a thread that suggests helpful ways to balance the dervish instead of one trolling anet's poor balancing decisions.

I agree Mr. Angry pants... with a tiny portion of what you said. Underlined above.

This, boys and girls is what we call "POWER CREEP"

But seeing as the current Dervish meta is "good" *cough* at everything, how about you tell us what their primary task should be? See my above post... Step 1.

Oh and before you go stomping out Mr. Angry pants... I expect this homework to be waiting on my desk when I return. Thanks, you can go now.

akelarumi · Apr 25, 2011, 09:53 AM // 09:53

I've started playing this game 26 months ago and paid 50 bucks for all campaigns. I played it for 5,733 hours in total. So I'm playing for less then 0,01 bucks/hour. The game had several big updates. Some I really liked, some I didn't like.

The people making those changing are living from the money we paid when we bought the game. The owners of the company also have to make profit out of it.

Personally I'm really happy with the amount of work they still are putting into this game though I would say they should put more effort into bringing out GW2 a.s.a.p. (but thats personal preference).

I'm lmao in a sarcastic way how people troll the live team for new updates and troll them again on every point they don't like when an update is out.

It is ok to give feedback to them. Point out what they did good and might have done better. Give solid constructive ideas for improvement. But please don't treat them like this for the hard work they are doing with a reasonable small team.

Myself I want to thank Anet for doing your best to still improve this game and adding fresh new things to it.

To make a small suggestion: Try to think bout the people who enjoy playing PvP. I know the numbers aren't what it was used to be, but PvP has always been an important positive point on guildwars. So when adding new fresh things to the game, think bout the PvP-er as well so PvP gets some nice impulse, attracting new players to it without annoying the devoted people that has always been loyal to this part of the game.

*lemming* · Apr 25, 2011, 10:00 AM // 10:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

To make a small suggestion: Try to think bout the people who enjoy playing PvP. I know the numbers aren't what it was used to be, but PvP has always been an important positive point on guildwars. So when adding new fresh things to the game, think bout the PvP-er as well so PvP gets some nice impulse, attracting new players to it without annoying the devoted people that has always been loyal to this part of the game.

I enjoyed playing PvP before the dervish update.

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

It is ok to give feedback to them. Point out what they did good and might have done better. Give solid constructive ideas for improvement. But please don't treat them like this for the hard work they are doing with a reasonable small team.

That argument is a bizarre one to make. Most major updates have left the game in significantly worse shape than before they were released. What's the point of their "hard work" if it's actively deleterious?

As for feedback, Izzy back in the day and the Live Team since the founding of the Test Krewe get quite a bit of it from credible sources. Most of it is disregarded.

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

It is ok to give feedback to them. Point out what they did good and might have done better. Give solid constructive ideas for improvement. But please don't treat them like this for the hard work they are doing with a reasonable small team.

Myself I want to thank Anet for doing your best to still improve this game and adding fresh new things to it.

Dude, in all seriousness, you are absolutely right. The problems really are minor in the long run and will get unwrinkled.

but now i feel like an ass, what started out as trolling other players, I took too far

great, now i'm mr sad pants.

Azazello · Apr 25, 2011, 10:16 AM // 10:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Groth

Your question presumes two things.
1.) that the current dervish play-style needs to be changed. (i agree)
2.) that the current dervish skill-set power is acceptable and not
in need of balancing with existing alternate profession mechanics.
(I disagree)

Well part one is implicit to the question, being that the question itself is a response to a statement that the dervish playstyle is flawed. Part two is not actually assumed, it simply highlights that the playstyle response to my original question assumes it. So I guess my response to you would be to refer to my original question.

Your answer seems to be that dervs can do too much? The meta bars pretty much just pressure and spike (as frontliners always have), with aura of thorns being a very notable exception.

So again, what is the desired outcome? To what purpose are people asking for dervish nerfs? What is it about having high powered frontliners that makes the game no fun? What problems does it cause that people are trying to correct? I suggested some possible answers, and someone else suggested a different one, but those don't seem to be it? Is it a combination of all of them, something completely different, or both?

yitjuan · Apr 25, 2011, 10:36 AM // 10:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

The people making those changing are living from the money we paid when we bought the game. The owners of the company also have to make profit out of it.

This is kinda wrong. They are now living off the money that comes in when new players buy the game , as well as costumes. Having good PVP balance does not increase either variable, thus one would devote less time to it.

cantalus · Apr 25, 2011, 10:56 AM // 10:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by akelarumi

I've started playing this game 26 months ago and paid 50 bucks for all campaigns. I played it for 5,733 hours in total. So I'm playing for less then 0,01 bucks/hour. The game had several big updates. Some I really liked, some I didn't like.

The people making those changing are living from the money we paid when we bought the game. The owners of the company also have to make profit out of it.

the pricing model is of no relavance to this discussion

cantalus · Apr 25, 2011, 11:05 AM // 11:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

So again, what is the desired outcome? To what purpose are people asking for dervish nerfs? What is it about having high powered frontliners that makes the game no fun? What problems does it cause that people are trying to correct? I suggested some possible answers, and someone else suggested a different one, but those don't seem to be it? Is it a combination of all of them, something completely different, or both?

the problem is that any character or skill that is OP, is it makes the game boring, the good thing about GWs pvp is the choices and situations that occur, the responces and tactics that happen, these things make the pvp interesting, so a class that just dominates cause it's overpowered means no need for intelligence and experince, and this is why people who are not just interested in fame and shiney emotes are frustrated because it doesn't matter what you do, you know you can be defeated by a lot of numbskulls in a dervtrain

bbway put me off HA unless i was pm'd, dervs everywhere have made me never play it, all i do now is a bit of RA and a bit of GVG, though for me dervs have spoilt that too

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 11:07 AM // 11:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azazello

Well part one is implicit to the question, being that the question itself is a response to a statement that the dervish playstyle is flawed. Part two is not actually assumed, it simply highlights that the playstyle response to my original question assumes it. So I guess my response to you would be to refer to my original question.

Your answer seems to be that dervs can do too much? The meta bars pretty much just pressure and spike (as frontliners always have), with aura of thorns being a very notable exception.

So again, what is the desired outcome? To what purpose are people asking for dervish nerfs? What is it about having high powered frontliners that makes the game no fun? What problems does it cause that people are trying to correct? I suggested some possible answers, and someone else suggested a different one, but those don't seem to be it? Is it a combination of all of them, something completely different, or both?

I'll do this line item:
1.) what is the desired outcome: balance.
2.) to what purpose.. nerfs? balance.
3.) why is dervish being high power front line that makes the game no fun? because they are IMBALANCED
4.) what problems does it cause? oh, i don't know, it could have something to do with an entire party of unkillable dervishes with warrior level armor spamming unstoppable unblockable medium to high damage skills, physical attacks and spells that heal themselves, snare all foes, remove conditions from themselves, stack conditions on all foes, both at range and within melee and otherwise make the game entirely unplayable unless you are a dervish? no, that can't be it. because then every idiot would be playing as a... oh.(/facepalm)
5.) suggested... someone else suggested... can't be it? Well, when you are trying to pin down a single frustrating attribute of a class that can do everything well... you're going to hear a whole lot of answers. and in most cases they are all true. The trick is: Isolating a few and saying this is what we need to make the dervish BAD at. And leaving the rest alone.
6.) is it a combination of all of them? yes.
7.) something completely different? no.
8.) combination and something completely different. no.

The problem is this. The dervish doesn't really have a weakness per se. As melee it can wade into enemies while shrugging off traditional anti-melee protections. It casts 0 activation time spells which do AoE damage AND apply conditions/snare entire groups for low energy. All while protected by warrior level armor and protective enchants providing sustainable self healing and damage mitigation superior to any profession.
a.) That is why you are seeing so many pressure spiker builds.

Additionally however, they have good energy regen, condition removal, additonal armor and energy management from mysticism, and ranged snares, enchants, etc. and make good healers, ranged damage,
b.) They CAN FILL ANY ROLL, just because you've only seen the Balth spike pressure builds in meta doesn't mean thats all they can do... READ THE SKILLS ON WIKI. I'm not going to type them all here for you, and slowly explain to you why invulnerability with low energy costs for everything and the ability to generate adrenaline and use it effectively is a bad thing for other players/professions.

the only things i've killed a dervish with 1 on 1 (while in something silly like JQ or FA at the time, were my mesmer, and my assassin.) mesmer only lived because i caught his avatar when he didn't know i was there, and proceeded to watch him kill hisself with backfire using his flash enchants instead of just autoattacking me to death. My sin only won because the build I was running at the time was WotA with WoP and Critical Defense at 15 critical strikes and 13 dagger mastery running the unblockable combo.

again, this wasn't rocket science level pvp... both times it was not a skilled player, and the persons skills were not complimentary. on at least one of these occasions i think i recieved an outside heal where he had none and on both occasions i barely survived twice, verses good dervishes I typically die unless i kite them to allies who will maybe with 3 of us (and not standing like idiots shoulder to shoulder in front of him) may be able to kill one good one.

Urcscumug · Apr 25, 2011, 11:21 AM // 11:21

So there's no warriors in PvP anymore nowadays, right?

Groth · Apr 25, 2011, 11:29 AM // 11:29

And i'm done. spent. last post in this thread. The troller got trolled. lol.